obama's presidency does not exist. they're bound together by that same issue and the activism that was required in order to make -- >> that's a good point. >> in addition to the comparisons between the two of them, which is important, i think the other remarkable thing is the thread of liberty that connects them across space and time. the abolitionist improvement inspired thorough who inspired gandhi who inspired mandela. it's remarkable to see this thread of liberty that really comes full circle in the life of mandela and how he relates to barack obama. >> joshua, what if anything do we know about nelson mandela's faith? was he a spiritual man? >> he was a spiritual man. he was a christian. and that was sort of a motivating part of his life. and there's been a fair amount written on that, especially over the last few days. but i think he really saw his faith as a motivating force for his work in the public square, not just as something he keeps inside his own soul but something that he felt compelled to act for justic